Designing a turbo header from scratch

[admin]

With this thread, I'm going to need all the help and suggestions I can get.  I've done a bunch of investigating thus far and I have a basic idea as to how I want to set up my turbo set up. 

First off, materials...  from everything I have read, stainless steel handles the heat cycling of the high temp exhaust gas, cooling and then elevating temps again, etc. better than any of the other materials.  Heat cycling eventually causes the material to crack and fail.  When we add the boost pressures to the heat cycling we can easily see how the materials could fatigue.  Now I probably shouldn't worry about this at all considering how often I get to drive my car these days, but I'm thinking long term durability here.  I will also add that when we are mating surfaces we need to use good quality thick flanges.  High Boost pressures will bend the cheap stamped steel ones.

My design revolves around my existing parts.  I have a set of CB Performance end castings that have been sent to "Racin Jason" (Jason Eggum) to have them port matched to my killer heads.  I also have a mega squirt set up, a mustang throttle body, and a T3/T4 hybrid turbo.  I have a couple of design ideas I'd like to incorporate, but I'm not sure how...yet. 

1.) I'd like to make this thing hide under the deck lid.
2.) I'd like the turbo above the level of the deep sump
3.) I'd like the throttle body in roughly the same spot as a stock carb
4.) I REALLY want to add an intercooler.  I want to put the intercooler inside the car against the firewall.

I've found this site: http://store.racing-solutions.org/ which sells material for you to use to fab up your own headers.  Anybody know of any additional sites?

I'm hoping my buddy Jason will post up with some of his experience.  He's got a really nice A1 header set up too.

So I'd love to see links to any systems that are similar to what I'm talking about.  I'll continue to post up with more info as I learn more...

Scott Faivre

[Stripped66]

One constraint you have is that you need, at the absolute minimum, a 1 5/8" header to match your current exhaust ports. Obviously, the A1 header might meet your needs for locating the turbo under the apron, but call Tiger and ask him if he will make that header with 1 5/8" tube (currently, the only size I've seen offerred is the 1 1/2" diameter), and/or make it with stainless tube (big money big money, no whammy!).

The cheap route would be to run the CB Performance hideaway turbo header. I'm not terribly thrilled about the design and the way the header turns about 150 degrees into the inlet of the turbo...but it is nearly half the cost as A1's header and readily available if you simply want to get your engine under pressure.

Other options you might want to consider:

- Contact Andrew Foldhazi (2Stroke); he has opened a fab shop in NorCal and has experience fabricated stainless headers for turbos tucked away in street cars.
- Take a look at the header built by Mario Velotta: http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=114577
- Chop the flange off of your A1 Sidewinder, weld on a flange for T3 turbo housing...voila!

[Kenney]

Mario's header is pretty awesome and it sure gets the job done. I just saw 2Stroke's header and it's definitely something different. I sure do like it.

I'm looking more and more at DRD's header. It's definitely looking cleaner than CBs in terms of bends. Only a 1 1/2" though. Also, i haven't seen or heard of anyone running one yet.

Scott, weren't you looking at an over-the-alternator kind of setup before? With everything being down low (with the exception of the massive throttle body) on the intake side, maybe parking the turbo up near the shroud to the left of the throttle body with the compressor outlet clocked to aim over the shroud into the firewall should give you plenty of space to close the decklid.

BTW, the link for the materials site is great, thanks for posting that. Back in my RX7 days, I gave my paychecks to ATP Turbo for a few years. They're great to deal with and know a thing or 2 that have helped me out tons.

Kenney

[Stripped66]

I'm looking more and more at DRD's header. It's definitely looking cleaner than CBs in terms of bends. Only a 1 1/2" though. Also, i haven't seen or heard of anyone running one yet.

That's the one made by A1. I have that header and should hopefully have my engine running soon. At 1 1/2", I also wondered if it was too small for my 2276, but others in the hobby assured me it was fine. I'll know for sure soon enough...

[admin]

I'll have to think about that.  I know that when we are talking about Naturally Aspirated headers, we need to maintain an equal legnth before the collector.  I'm wondering if the DRD one maintains that rule.  Also, is this rule even valid with turbo use?

It's interesting nonetheless.  And with my garage as clean as it is presently, it would be great to pull put the welder and see what I could come up with.

I'm presently looking to see if anyone makes a mounting flange for the stock mustang 5.0 throttle body.  If anybody sees something, please post up!

Andrew's (2stroke) header system looks pretty neat.  He's definitely thinking outside the box!

Scott Faivre

[Kenney]

Oh, ok. I guess I'm kind of oblivious when I think of the A1 turbo header. I remember seeing somebody (somewhere) had A1 lob off the collector flange and put a a T3 flange (maybe a T4) on the end. I'm not sure if the A1 turbo header is equal length or not. I know these aren't Subaru's, but the turbo engine's have always had unequal-length headers. From what I understand, this aid's in increasing torque lower down on the rev range, and also helps out that signature exhaust note they seem to sing so well.

 

I'll have to think about that.  I know that when we are talking about Naturally Aspirated headers, we need to maintain an equal legnth before the collector.  I'm wondering if the DRD one maintains that rule.  Also, is this rule even valid with turbo use?

The only reason I can think of to go and do an equal length system is for off-boost driveability. It'll help out in N/A scavenging, so it sure wouldn't hurt anything to have the same setup with a turbo at the other end.

It's interesting nonetheless.  And with my garage as clean as it is presently, it would be great to pull put the welder and see what I could come up with.

We'll fix that over the weekend.

Kenney

[Stripped66]

I'll have to think about that.  I know that when we are talking about Naturally Aspirated headers, we need to maintain an equal legnth before the collector.  I'm wondering if the DRD one maintains that rule. 

The DRD header (made by A1) is not equal-length.

Also, is this rule even valid with turbo use?

I know that Marty has claimed that it is a valid rule...and it makes sense. If the primaries are equal-length, then each exhaust pulse should arrive at the collector one after the other...instead of multiple pulses arriving at the same time.

I'm presently looking to see if anyone makes a mounting flange for the stock mustang 5.0 throttle body.  If anybody sees something, please post up!

I could make you one if you don't find anything.

Andrew's (2stroke) header system looks pretty neat.  He's definitely thinking outside the box!

He's pretty sharp. But keep in mind, one hindrance to any custom work is the fabricator not having your engine/car in their possession. You could end up with interference somewhere, even after the best measurements and communication. 

[admin]

The DRD header (made by A1) is not equal-length.

I know that Marty has claimed that it is a valid rule...and it makes sense. If the primaries are equal-length, then each exhaust pulse should arrive at the collector one after the other...instead of multiple pulses arriving at the same time.

I could make you one if you don't find anything.

He's pretty sharp. But keep in mind, one hindrance to any custom work is the fabricator not having your engine/car in their possession. You could end up with interference somewhere, even after the best measurements and communication. 

I spent an hour and a half looking for a mounting plate for that mustang TB.  No luck as of yet.  I'm giving up for the evening. 

Scott Faivre

[Kenney]

I spent an hour and a half looking for a mounting plate for that mustang TB.  No luck as of yet.  I'm giving up for the evening. 

Scott Faivre

Would this be something you could do yourself? Maybe with some help locally? If the little cnc wasn't busted, i'd do it. I might know someone that could make one.

http://www.blackroseracing.net/AdapterPlateDesign/

[admin]

That's the basic idea.  I don't know if the drawing was done to scale or if the dimensions are correct, as the center bore looked a bit small.  My Mustang TB is 60mm.  I don't want the collar coming out.  I was just thinking of a plate with a hole in it and then fillet welding it to the intake pipe from the backside.

I need an IAC for my TB too if anybody knows where to score one on the cheap!

Kenny what do you need to fix your cnc?  Between Jason, myself, and your project we might have enough work to get you going again.   (I know all 3 of us are flat broke right now, but we'll see.)

Scott Faivre

[Kenney]

That's the basic idea.  I don't know if the drawing was done to scale or if the dimensions are correct, as the center bore looked a bit small.  My Mustang TB is 60mm.  I don't want the collar coming out.  I was just thinking of a plate with a hole in it and then fillet welding it to the intake pipe from the backside.

I need an IAC for my TB too if anybody knows where to score one on the cheap!

Kenny what do you need to fix your cnc?  Between Jason, myself, and your project we might have enough work to get you going again.   (I know all 3 of us are flat broke right now, but we'll see.)

Scott Faivre

I'm sure we can make something without having to have it cut for $$$.

Unfortunately, the motor I need for my Z-axis is the same as the other ones i got (in a set) and fairly pricey. They're Parker BE series servos. Frame size is a 23 which doesn't help much. They're getting rarer and rare and the price isn't getting any better. If I can get a used motor, i'll see if I can at least get some new mounting plates made for some tougher motor and be able to due mild steel and tougher parts without it taking 3 weeks. 

For now, though, I can operate the Z-axis by hand. The REALLY bad part is I have to be there the whole time to operate Z manually and then restart the g-code. Blah. We'll see, i'm still looking for a motor.

Kenney