Anybody Running EFI, MegaSquirt, etc?

[QuickKafer]

I've got a lot of parts sitting around that I'd love to put together.  I've got my stuff to put together a stout 2275 with 48 IDFs.  But I'm starting to think that Carbs are quickly becoming out dated.

When you look at some of the fastest, quickest, and most reliable cars, they're all running EFI and turbos.  I don't need a "400HP Daily Driver" (I won't turn that down if you want to give me one! ) but a reliable 200HP 2275 is something totally attainable.  I've been talking to a few individuals that have a lot of experience with this stuff and they swear by it.  I'm not sure yet, but I'd love to find out. 

Since my parts have been collected over the past 10 years, I'm in a struggle.  Should I just put my engine together naturally aspirated, or should I educate myself and waste another year or so and go Turbo EFI?  I have the T3/T4 turbo and the header, I just need to build an EFI system.  EFI is no simple task.  There is a big learning curve.

Have any of you messed with EFI at all?  How hard was it?

Scott Faivre

[QuickKafer]

Well, being the technology geek that I am, I think I am going to go down this road.  I'm not sure how long it will take, but it will be a heck of a journey to take on.  I've already spent quite a bit of time reading up on the MegaSquirt kits and that seems like the best way for me to go.  So, stay tuned to this thread as it will take a looooong time to complete!  This will not be like Greg's thread where he built a motor in month.  Mine may take a year (or more).

There is a bit of a learning curve to getting up and going with EFI.  That is one of the main advantages of getting started in Mega Squirt.  You build it, you install it, and you tune it!  I'm not made of money, but I am a smart guy.  I can do this.  I'm looking forward to the challenge. 

Scott Faivre

[Kenney]

Hey Scott

I had a MS system on my 1st gen RX-7 about 5 years ago. They're not nearly as bad as they seem, and, from what I understand, they've made the newer ones easier to work with. I had changed over from a weber 48 and the differences in fuel economy, response, and tuning ability was phenomenal.

I originally purchased the full DIY kit, and soldered everything myself. Saved alot of money and only took a few hours to assemble everything. I'll be building a new one later next month for the rally car my buddy and I race. Hopefully, we'll have everything set up and tuned for the Laughlin International rally in november. Granted, it doesn't take THAT long to get everything set in right, but we're moving from stock injectors and turbo, so there will be alot more involved.

I can't imagine tuning a VW with wideband (I use a DIY TechEdge unit on mine) and MS being too difficult. One of the coolest things about the MS system, is the ability to develop different maps for different situations. For my rotary, I had one for daily driving, one for autocross, one for highway driving, and one just for trips to Colorado to see the Pikes Peak race. Altitude was killer. Having all those maps is a bit over-kill, but they made a difference in every situation.

But I'm starting to think that Carbs are quickly becoming out dated.

I guess that's debatable. Before I got my vdub, all I ever had was rotary powered cars. My 2nd Gen turbo II was EFI and turbo. It was okay for what it was, but to get to where I wanted to go. I ditched the fi and turbo in favor of port work and a 51 IDA and WOW. I really don't know a whole lot about VWs, nor have I been in anything with an engine other than a 1600 (and a 40hp at one point), so I can't comment on how a VW engine would work with EFI over carbs.

Those I've spoken to running EFI vw engines have praised them, but then again, i've spoken to a few people who swear by carbs and never even tried anything else. Price per performance is kinda unbeatable with EFI, unless you go over the top and buy more than what you need. I've been partial to RC Engineering's injectors for as long as I can remember, but those might be a bit much for non-racing engines.

I'll follow this thread cause i'd like to see how it works out for ya. I may not be of too much help, but i'll try and answer questions you might have along the way. I still have my old MS 2.2 and my new 3 (yet to be built) boards and everything I made for the 2 down in the garage waiting patiently for other projects. Maybe even my bug someday. If I ever get the money to build something a little more reliable.

Kenney

[QuickKafer]

Great Reply there Kenney!  It's nice to know that there are people that might be able to coach me as I take on this HUGE undertaking.

Regarding my statement about the carbs being outdated, PLEASE don't get me wrong:  I love a VW engine with a set of twin Webers barking away as you blip the throttle open.  That is awesome!  That's currently what I have right now too!  But when we talk about running a turbo, and increasing the amount of fuel and retarding the timing for higher levels of boost, it seems like a "no brain-er" to utilize the technology available to us with an ECM.  My goal is to have a car capable of producing 250 HP with the right set up from my 2275cc engine.  From a few of the experts on this subject that I have spoke to, it's totally doable, but will require a lot of time spent tuning.

Until then, I'll keep my 1776 and dual kadrons buzzing around town in my daily driver!

Scott Faivre

[Kenney]

250hp? Dayum! I couldn't imagine how quick that thing'll be. Then again, my tired 1600 d/p seems to eat up the coffee can muffler cars around town pretty easily.

I really wish I had more experience with dual-carbed vw's. After I got my car, I changed the oil, plugs, wires, cap and rotor, air filter, and drained the gas tank, refilling it with 91 oct. That was my idea of performance. Affordable, anyways.

I didn't mean to draw up any stuff about carbs vs efi. Just thought I'd toss out my own experiences. Of course, rotaries are few and far between in this instance. But, some like efi, some like carbs. My late turbo II wanted a bridge port and LOADS of gas only a weber could provide.

Yeah, I have to agree. Turbos and EFI seem to go hand in hand when it comes down to tuning and reliability. It's as easy as pluging in the laptop and mapping everything out, then saving it.

Well, like I said before, i'm pretty sure there's some guys around here that have a bit more knowledge and experience with MS or turbo/efi in general. If not, feel free to contact me and i'll do whatever I can to help out. I might be heading back to the land of rotaries again (this time in a bug) running MS. I love aircooleds, but dammit, I just can't seem to keep this thing running well when I have a few extra rotary engines and parts laying around.

Kenney

BTW, if you don't mind, i'm trying to learn a bit about bulding/re-building aircooleds. Any possibility of hanging out or aiding in your 2275 build? Nothing like a little hands-on, ya know?

[QuickKafer]

Sounds like a possibility.  I'll get started on my engine once we get back from the Classic.  I'm in my last 18 days of school, so I won't be available until after then.

Thanks!
Scott Faivre

[QuickKafer]

After some further research, I have looked into ignition control adaptations that you can use with Megasquirt.  You can use Ford EDIS system or GM HEI system.  Has anyone on here tried this with their aircooled VW?  I'm not a fan of Ford products at all, but it does seem like the easier of the 2 systems to use.  On some of the Megasquirt sites I've seen it looks like the Ford set up is quite successful even up to 8,000 RPM.

BUT, I also have a MSD set up too.  I wonder if it would be of benefit?

Scott Faivre

[Kenney]

Good question Scott. I had thought about this one for a while, too. I have bookmarked about 20 pages on the 'net in regards to EDIS and MS on an aircooled setup.

My searches kept going back to the same page -> Boost Engineering
Their prices are fairly reasonable, and great quality. You could, however, save a few bucks and head to a decent pick-a-part yard and pick it all up for under $100.

A buddy of mine in Boulder City has their pulley with the ring mounted to it (and balanced) on his 1835 turbo sandrail. Quite nice, and the results are terrific.

If you want, I could post up a few links I found in my searches.

[admin]

I just found something really slick this weekend at the classic!  It is a new ECU set up from Red Line Weber.  The thing that I found really cool about this set up was that it was made from a billet crank pulley with the back half of the pulley being machined to have the 36 tooth crank trigger wheel built right into the pulley!  I was so interested and asked so many questions that I forgot to snap a picture!  Oops!

Has anyone else seen a trick pulley like this before?

Scott Faivre

[admin]

I have found a source for Mexican EFI parts!

The parts are all off of late model FI Beetles in Mexico.  Some parts are new, some are used.  I'm going to be placing order.  Anybody want to order anything, so we can save on the shipping?

This will hooked up to a Megasquirt controller.  Again, this motor ain't happenin' anytime soon.  But I'm still collecting parts.  It should kick some butt though!

Take a look at this link: www.turbobobefi.com

Scott Faivre

[Kenney]

Hmmmm. I've had this site bookmarked for some time. Never really saw any info as far as parts are concerned. Scott, i'd be interested in going in on an order with you.

Most of my engine parts and turbo stuff are on stand-by awaiting some parts, which looks like I could get in one shot.

Any parts and/or price lists available? Looking to rid myself of another bothersome paycheck. 

[admin]

Well, I'm setting some lofty goals.  I spoke with a couple of guys tonight that say that the small 43mm TB might be a choke point on my system that I'm planning.  I'm looking at these manifolds from CB as well:


I'm thinking about going "shopping" over at the local junkyard and seeing what they have available in regards to a 55-60mm Throttle body and the Ford EDIS set up.  My goal is to have a nice set up that anyone can build from mostly junkyard parts.  Now, 75lb fuel injectors won't be found there!   4 of those will set me back 230-300 bucks!

Scott

[Kenney]

75 lb/hr sounds like a good size for a 2275.

I plan to make a quick trip to my favorite 'yard this weekend. A TB has just been added to my list. I suppose for my application, a stock 5.0 rustang TB should be sufficient. I believe they're 65mm with a 55mm MAF housing. Hopefully, I can get to soldering my wideband kit and maybe get started on my new MS board, as well. As for the EDIS stuff, I thought about buying everything from a 'yard, but alot of the stuff is pretty cheap at the FLAPS. The coils and trigger wheels are going to run a bit. Not to mention, a PITA to pull off a busted car.

Let me know if you're gonna place an order for some stuff, we can do a group buy. I will need some end castings and probably one of those alternator stands. Even an order from CB, always a pleasure. I'm always ready for a buy, so drop me a line, please.

Kenney

ps - Any idea how much those stocker throttle bodies are going for?

[admin]

Here's the price list:

- EFI intake manifolds   for 2 heads $20

- EFI Throttle body with position sensor and plenum throttle body with plenum $42.63,

TPS $42.63

- Alternator stand and clamp, + oil cap for all= $41.79

- Intake air sensor $36.54

- Cylinder head temp sensor $14.63

- Fuel rails 2 =29.26

 injector gaskets $7.6, conecctors for the sensors$48.7 each, fuel presure regulator $20, bosch active coil$70, hall sensor distribuitor$91.32, fuel pump $103.49, oem stainlessteel tubing for the fuel rails

I was originally going to buy a lot of those parts, but I don't think I'm going that route anymore.  I'm thinking the same way as you: Using a Mustang TB and almost nothing else is usable from the Mexican EFI set up.  Robert Hemphill (www.turbobobefi.com) recreated his engine out of the Mexican EFI parts and he had made significantly LESS power than with his German set up.  With the Mexican end castings, guys are having to TIG in bigger injector bosses, and port the crap out of them.  With the small diameter of the individual runners, there's not a lot to port.  I was told that also is a restriction on the CB end castings, but not until we've well exceeded the HP goals I'm shooting for.

I'm thinking of waiting for the weather to drop sub 100* and then spending a LONG day at the junkyard getting all the odds and ends for the big conversion.  (TB, Injectors, an EDIS set up, fuel pump, misc sensors, and an intercooler)  Then I'll take it all back to my evil laboratory and make my own version of Frankenstein!

Scott Faivre

[Kenney]

Thanks for that list Scott! I plan to make a relatively plain efi system for a 1600dp i'll be rebuilding later this season. I don't want anything spectacular for that engine, as it'll be my winter engine with heater boxes.

Robert Hemphill (www.turbobobefi.com) recreated his engine out of the Mexican EFI parts and he had made significantly LESS power than with his German set up.  With the Mexican end castings, guys are having to TIG in bigger injector bosses, and port the crap out of them.  With the small diameter of the individual runners, there's not a lot to port.  I was told that also is a restriction on the CB end castings, but not until we've well exceeded the HP goals I'm shooting for.

That's VERY good information to know. I recall seeing a thread on another forum where the guy posted pics of how he modified them. Hopefully, if my math is correct, I won't fall behind with the CB units. A single point of entry on a boxer engine is what I was aiming for, and it'll make my turbo install much cleaner and simpler (can't forget, cheaper), as opposed to 2 massive throttle bodies on either side of the engine. Even though 2 DO look quite nice.

I'm thinking of waiting for the weather to drop sub 100* and then spending a LONG day at the junkyard getting all the odds and ends for the big conversion.  (TB, Injectors, an EDIS set up, fuel pump, misc sensors, and an intercooler)  Then I'll take it all back to my evil laboratory and make my own version of Frankenstein!

Intercooler? Are you gonna go turbo? 

I'd love to wait 'til Fall to head out, but all the kids are out of school right now, which means they're out wrecking their cars, which in turn, fills up the scrap yards, haha. The pickins are pretty good now. I've opted to pick up a brand new coil from Ford. Something like that, i'm not sure i'd want used. I plan to head out tomorrow and see what I can scrounge up, might even drag home another audi, like last time. 

Kenney